NOTE: UPDATE at 1:00 pm: (5-7-14) I am having some doubts that this is Fiasco. I think it MAY be Fresia and her foal. Scott the photographer does not have a photo with her looking at the camera so we can see her markings to confirm for sure. I will keep you posted. Consulting others so we can make a decision!
Please place your votes on who you think it is in the comment section! You can see photos of Fresia’s foal (and Fresia) by clicking on this link: FOAL
Either way, cute healthy foal! 🙂
UPDATE: May 15, 2014. The BLM or NPS have not located Custer and band since this possible sighting. But they have seen Fresia. So until I get a confirmation, I am changing this post and calling this foal Fresia’s. Sorry for the confusion. So this is foal number # 7 , again. I thought of just deleting this post, but there have been several interesting conversations in the comments, so I will just leave it up.
Sandy
Thank you Scott!
Sandy
ps: Scott provided me with more photos of Hataalii and her foal. If you would like to see those, click on this link: Hataalii
So beautiful! Look at that face and expressive eyes! Did Scott say if he thought it was a colt of filly? I was kinda hoping they would have a filly this year. Beautiful baby either way!
No confirmation on sex yet. I am hoping filly too!
Did he mention if Winnemucca was with them?
No, he did not mention it. But he does not know the names of the horses. I will try to find out more.
Sarah, I just got confirmation from the NPS that Winnemucca was with them! YAY!!
Glad she’s with them!
He had some really nice photos of Hataalii also, I added them to that post.
I agree, the foal has a beautifully expressive face! 🙂
That foal looks really healthy. Looks like a little Onyx to me;) Shaman and Sitka were some of the first wild horses I was ever exposed to. Custer is doing such a great job carrying on his sires legacy:)
I always love foals from these two. I wonder if this one will stay dun or surprise us like Nodin?
I will be the first to cast my vote: I think it is Fresia and her foal, not Fiasco. 🙁
I’m thinking it’s Fresia now that you mention it 🙂
Did he have any of the photos of the rest of the band? You also mentioned that the NPS had info on the Custer’s band in a previous comment. Did they mention anything about a foal?
NPS saw them on Thursday and this was taken on Sunday. NPS said no foal when they saw them on Thursday. I am trying to get more photos with a clue of what band, but not really sure yet. Long story.
Thanks! This is like your who will have foals part 2.
Yes. 🙂
As excited as I am for a Felicity baby, I agree with you. It is a weird angle, but to me it does not look like Felicity in the photo. Felicity’s shoulder is set a little lower than Fresia’s is. Felicity’s mane is also pretty thin compared with Fresia’s mane.
I am thrilled to hear Winnemucca is still ticking!
Also, sorry! I know I should use her BLM name in your blog, but Fiasco is the one name I simply cannot bring myself to use. It’s cool sounding, but at the same time it seems a liitle mean, y’know? There is nothing about her or her life up to this point that I would label a “fiasco”. <3
I totally agree with you! That is a horrible name, and I try not to think about it. I guess there must not have been a F Year Name Game that year to look at. Because I am sure we can all come up with a lot more names that would be more fitting.
Yes, I am glad about Winnemucca too. NPS saw that band last Thursday, this possible foal was sited on Sunday. Hopefully we will get confirmation on it soon. Think it is Fresia hope it is that mare that belongs with Custer! 😉
So sweet!
Earlier today when you first posted I thought it was Fiasco (or more sweetly known as Felicity 😉 ) but now I’m thinking that it is Fresia. When I was comparing the body types in the pictures from last week Fresia seemed to look more round than the mare in this picture, but it is also an awkward angle. And the two tone is in the right place for Fiasco but that doesn’t mean it’s not Fresia. But then the more I was looking at the pictures the more I was starting to think it was Fresia instead. And when looking closely at the foals the shoulder bars look like they may be the same. They both have a hook behind to the left of the main pointed shoulder bar. Although when they’re babies those shoulder bars can look so similar. Hopefully someone can see Custer’s band and we’ll get some conformation. Although if this really is Fresia then I’m still hoping Fiasco will have a pretty little seal bay roan filly that looks just like her daddy! 🙂
A seal bay roan would be lovely!!
Thanks Sarah. I think you are right!!
Looks like Fresia to me, but I’m not 100% positive….Interesting that we are debating between two mares born in the same year!
Thanks Abbie, I agree! Yes, it is interesting. Both mares are very close in color, there manes go in different directions, but in this photo it is hard to make out the direction and if the wind was strong, hard to tell. Unfortunately, we can not see the facial markings, so that would have helped. But when I decided it was most likely Fresia was comparing the foal and the markings and pattern of the shoulder bars. Sarah and I spent a lot of time looking at those. They do look the same, but those babies can be so close in looks when they are first born. I am still sticking with Fresia now, but I hope we hear that Fiasco has also foaled. She only has one living offspring on the range right now and it would be nice if she had another.
Posted the below paragraph on the Burnt Timber Day 2 post (I was behind the curve in commenting on a few of the posts) but since no one is discussing in the comments there anymore I hope you don’t mind me reposting this here? I’m curious to know what you guys think 🙂
In situations where daughters have stayed with their sires to the point where the lines have blurred, has anyone noticed any common denominators among those scenarios? I read a comment somewhere suggesting that Dancer may have stayed with her natal band because Sitka just disappeared so she didn’t have time to grow apart (not sure if that’s reading too much into it but seems like it could be a possible theory given the strong bonds the horses form). What are everyone else’s thoughts?
I have heard different theories about this. Some people say when a horse reaches a certain age, that they no longer seem to know they are related. But those same people say there is such a deep bond between mothers and daughters. Without being a horse, I guess we have no way of knowing for sure. It was painful to see Damsel have a blind and deformed foal in 2011 and know that it was because of inbreeding and even more painful to see her hugely pregnant the next year and then die. That last summer that Damsel was with Cloud, I watched Jasmine over and over try to leave and go with Jackson. I worried that her situation would turn out the same as Damsel, but relieved it did not. Now there is Nimbus. And of course there is also Killian, he is going to be 4 this year and last report was he was still with his family band and barely allowed to leave the band long enough to spar with some near-by bachelors. We can all speculate what the reason is, but we will never know for sure.
I’m pretty sure inbreeding in animals is as hard to explain as is incest among humans. There can be so many factors contributing. I’m going to do some research on this issue. Bottom line is that it is not a good thing and we can hope for a minimum of occurrences in any species. The consequences are so much more serious for the females, like Damsel. I, of course, hope that maybe one of these years soon, Killian will become very interested in a mare who is not his band mate, and will go out on his own. My instinct is that Bolder would not be allowing any sexual behavior from Killian with his mother, and she didn’t seem to be interested in him in that way when I was there, but wonder if anyone has observed that. So many mysteries…
I think that for the most part the horses do remember their family relations. There’s many mother/ daughter pairs that chose to stay together and also that may be separated from several years and then ended up together again in the same band and those bonds are still there. Also I’ve known many horses personally who were siblings or a parent and their offspring who had been separated for several years and then were reunited and by their reactions you could tell they definitely still knew who each other were. Also I did notice some behavior with a couple of our yearlings this year that seems to back this up. One of the yearlings who was still a stud (he was scheduled to be gelding soon) became interested in mares. There were two yearling fillies he was out with and one of them he was raised with and the other he was not. He was very interested in the filly he was not raised with. But never showed any sexual behavior (that was seen) towards the filly he was raised with who he viewed as a “sister.” I’ve also found it interesting that in the Pryors for the most part you don’t see male/female siblings who were raised together end up in the same bands after they leave their family band. Right now Gringo has his half sister Galadrial that he was raised with, but she was a part of the band that he stole that included three other mares. The only other instance I can think of right now is how Hidalgo has Fresia, but she was also a part of a band that he stole. And stealing that band was more like taking advantage of a good opportunity more than him chosing that band. But for the most part you really don’t see stallions trying to steal mares who were raised with them as sisters. I also don’t think that there is any sexual intentions or behavior between Echo and Celt. I’ve seen him show interest in Velvet, but haven’t heard of anyone seeing him show that kind of interest in Celt. Dancer was an unfortunate situation, but not the only time that’s ever happened. Some mares stay with their family bands longer than others. And I think it has a lot to do with the mare too. If they don’t want to leave, another stallion is going to have trouble taking them. And with Dancer she was stubborn and did what she wanted. I think it depends a lot on the mare. Some are ready to leave as yearlings and some want to stay longer. I think as the mares get closer to somewhere around the age of 5 that is when the lines can become more blurred with their fathers. I think being stallions the hormones have a lot to do with the lines blurring. Sometimes I wonder if there was another issue along with the inbreeding in the case of Dancer’s blind and deformed foal. I’ve wondered if there was something wrong in the genetics or chormosomes or something, just because we’ve seen other cases where there was inbreeding that didn’t have such drastic consequences. But even if that was the case the inbreeding probably made that problem even worse. Haha I just realized that I typed more than I meant and practically a novel. But basically my point is that I think for the most part they do remember their familial relations.
Have you gotten more info or photos? From these photos it sure looks like Fresia. I do know time reveals the secrets! As for Fiasco’s name….at the time the interns from the BLM were naming the foals. We had suggested the name Falling Star for her (for obvious reasons). However, they gave that name to another foal that didn’t survive. Fiasco is an Italian name for the woven basket that holds a wine bottle upright….the support to keep it standing. Support…strength…Fiasco.
Thank you Nancy! That is a much better thought for the meaning of her name. I got as much information with the photos as I could. It is a long story I will share with you another time.
Lest we forget there is more than one language in the world…. I like it. 🙂 Thanks for filling in the blanks.
Another YAY for Winnemuca! I love knowing those experienced matrons still roam the Range. On that subject, has anyone reported seeing Madonna as yet?
I’m quite a bit behind the curve, too, with comments, what with our trip and all. So, I’m going to post my thoughts on some of the issues expressed on the “Burnt Timber, Day Two” post both there, and here. So here goes…I have to disagree with the impression being put forth on “Burnt Timber, Day Two” that Jackson may be a somewhat timid stallion. Truth is, you don’t get, and keep, for the most part, a large band by being at all timid. I have seen him in brief encounters with several stallions, various ages, and have never seen him back down from any of them. Frequently, all it takes is his confident and firm posturing to discourage the intruder. Some of the stallions are known for their bravado, some for their intelligence, and some for the combination of those and other characteristics. It’s my impression that Jackson possesses and demonstrates many of them. Great courage, bravery and determination are qualities ALL the wild ones possess in varying degrees just to survive out there, but, as with human defenders of freedom, only a few of the heroes are ever really known about by the masses. Jackson may be less known, but he is no less admirable in his role in the Pryor Mountain Mustang herd than Cloud, even if we haven’t been privileged to observe a lot of his battles. Seems to me like some folks may be having a hard time accepting that the same things will happen to Cloud as have happened to all the other great stallions on the Range, and will happen to all of them in the future. I can understand that, but it’s not necessary to try to diminish Jackson in dealing with it.
My theory is that the reason Jackson and Cloud’s bands are close a lot of the time in the recent past is because of Firestorm and Jasmine being in Jackson’s band. I think everyone should be really glad Jasmine is with another stallion who intends to keep her. When I first saw Jackson and his band in 07, he had none of Cloud’s daughters, and Cloud was not anywhere nearby. Jackson’s band members were happily neighboring with Sante Fe and Lakota’s bands. Hopefully, the scenario of Cloud letting another stallion breed Nimbus, if she is indeed in heat, (and I’m with everyone who thinks she probably is), is accurate. It would be so much better than the possibility that Cloud is interested in her. It would be good if she is not quite developed enough to actually conceive, but I suppose the chances of that are slim. As you say, Sarah, an allowed or chance mating between her and Sante Fe seems like it could very well explain Sante Fe’s determination. However, it does seem odd then, that Cloud would be so determined to prevent it from happening again. And now, we have Cappucino and Doc in the mix. But they are wild horses, and there is a lot we don’t see.
Bottom line is, if someone followed Jackson and his band around with movie cameras etc., for any length of time, they’d find him pretty impressive, too. His poop is on the top of many studpiles on the Range (and that is important to the stallions when they have encounters), and that’s because he’s aggressive when he needs to be, intelligent enough to reserve his strength for important battles and in very good physical condition.
And as for Cloud, I prefer to believe this particular year may not end too badly for him. Yes, he is thin, and yes, he’s older and under pressure, but he still has Feldspar and their offspring, troublesome as this time with Nimbus may be. Many horses have been VERY thin after long winters and have come out of it fine. (Let’s hope all the moisture from this long winter will make for great forage for the stallions and nursing mares especially, to rejuvenate.) Could be Cloud will spend a few of his later years with a smaller band. What would be wrong with that? Or, if it is his fate, his story would still be amazing if he becomes a respected “old man on the mountain” for a number of years, as a retired bachelor.
Hi Linda,
I agree, I hope Tonapah and Madonna both show up. That would be great, but if not, they will be remembered for the incredible matriarchs they both were. I have not heard of anyone seeing either. I did discover a new area (to me) that I had not spotted in my other glassing sessions. Very few people have shared with me where things are and what they are called on this range, so I have had to discover them myself. Not that I am complaining, I think it is actually great for it to be that way. Learning the range yourself gives you a much more sense of accomplishment when you find secret little areas that the horses are at. I found one such place as I was glassing on Cheyenne Flats last week. (I forgot to share this on my posts). There were a couple horses visible Wayyy off, so far, I could only make out that they were horses. (BT side). So there are horses out there that may have not showed their appearance much this winter/spring. I won’t give up on anyone until I see them on the mountain top this summer.
Thank you for your comment about Jackson. You know I most certainly agree with you. Jackson is and will always be one of my favorites. He is fair and kind to his band members and protects them when needed. And yes, no one can have 11 band members ( last count last week) if you are not a STRONG and WISE stallion. No-one fights his battles for him. He is a fine example not only his color, but his personality of a Pryor Horse. I hope his sons will/have learned from him and will carry that with them and then pass it down to their offspring so that we can continue to witness it.
I forgot about Tonopah being “somewhere”, too—not with Fiesta, Horizon and Juniper anymore. We do hope for them ALL to make it thru the challenges, don’t we? But we know that’s not the way of things. And what beautiful lives they have had as wild horses on their wild range. They’ve contributed greatly to the herd by the foals they produced and by their wise and motherly ways that touched the lives of so many others. I’ve been thinking about Buffalo Girl and Beauty lately, too, and Sitka, and Echo. And one day, probably not in the far distant future, Hightail will join the legions of those who’ve gone on. They all deserve a Mother’s Day salute—even if this is a day late. 🙂 And I can’t help it, but I still hope all those ladies made it…
And one more thought on Jackson—it would be nice if his offspring could escape the “removal” list a little more. I’m not so good at the data evaluations, but it seems to me like his bands get hit pretty regularly. Sure would be nice if Hayden were still out there, anyway. 🙂 And Juneau. But then, I’m partial to those “old bloodline” genetics and coloring. Too bad he doesn’t have “the list” to go by on which ones to go after. LOL!
I don’t think those comments were meant to that Jackson was a timid stallion. I think they were more meant to mean that while he is more than ready and capable to defend his band, but if a neighboring band stallion wants to be the first to run off an intruder Jackson is fine to let that happen, but will handle the situation if that intruder continues to pose a threat or moves closer to his band. I am also going to think positive about Cloud. Many horses have been very thin and come out just fine, so I hope that will be the case here. 🙂
Sarah did a very good job summerizing the comments about Jackson. Personally I have a tremendous respect for him as he seems to know when to defend his band or when to consrve his energy. Also, I’m fairly certain no one described Jackson as timid…
Sarah, I look forward to you spending a couple of weeks with me next year so that you can see in person what actually goes on. 🙂
I so look forward to that too!!!
Seems to me like Jackson is a favourite of a lot of people-for good reason! 🙂 I’ve never actually seen him in person (unfortunately!) but the stories I’ve heard about him have made me very fond of him indeed (and it doesn’t hurt that he is gorgeous!)
Cloud allowing an outside stallion to breed his daughter and then not allowing her to go off with him isn’t unheard of, it happened with Firestorm and Santa Fe, so that seems like a likely explanation to me! And like Sarah pointed out, this time Santa Fe didn’t have a band to go back to so was possibly less accepting of having his suite refused.
That is a neat explanation of Fiasco’s name! Who is Fiasco’s one living offspring? I agree the foal looks very similar to Fresia’s foal.
I agree that Killian seems at lesser risk of engaging in inbreeding than a filly/mare would, simply because I doubt Bolder would allow it. Plus, it seems that Celt still behaves in a motherly fashion to him. Some colts are slower to leave the nest, and some mares are clingier! Celt has only had Killian, right? Maybe that’s one of the reasons she’s holding on to him?
In terms of bonds between mothers and daughters, it seems to me that they remain aware of this as long as they stay together? I have noticed some mare and offspring recognition between horses that have been separated too, however most people will say they don’t recognize each other truly. But like Sandy said, how could we ever really know? Damsel’s story was indeed tragic 🙁 Something was very strange about that situation. It’s sad too that she never left any healthy offspring that are still on the range.
Hi Abbie, I did not say that Fiasco only had one living offspring, just only one left on the range. It is Nodin, her colt that she had last year!
As far as Killian not being able to breed members of his family band. I don’t know, I just know that Bolder has to sleep sometime, he can’t be awake 24/7.
Sorry, I misread your comment! I’m not good with matching all the mare and foal pairs yet with bands I’m less familiar with 🙂 And that’s true, you never know I guess!
Isn’t Inocentes Fiasco’s daughter?
Yup. Forgot about that. Just was thinking of more recent years. Thanks for the correction Livi.
I woke up this morning and thought I should add a side-bar to your question Livi. Yes, Inoccentes is also Fiasco’s offspring. BUT (and I guess this is what I had in my mind) is that Fiasco and Custer only have ONE offspring on the range. With Custer being born in 1996, like Cloud, (and others), there are not many more years to reproduce. That would be a shame if Nodin was the only one, especially since he is barely a year old.
I have only seen Fiasco on one trip to the mountain top with Sandy, but I have seen Fresia almost every trip to the Dryhead. Looking at my photos of each of them, it seems to me that Fresia’s leg bars are more defined than Fiasco’s, so I am thinking this is Fresia. I continue to be amazed at the amount of knowledge of the horses, their bloodlines and history that many of you have. Love reading what you share!!
Thank you Laura!
I was going to be deleting this post, once we got confirmation that it is not Fiasco. But with 44 (now 45) comments, I am not sure I will do that. But it does seem strange to have #8 Foal when it is the wrong one. Hopefully Fiasco ends up being #8 after all and I can just change a few photos! HA
Looking at the foal I think this is Fresia’s volt as well. I thought he looked pretty big and just assumed he was found late but looking at the colts they seem to be the same. Even the shape of their heads is identical, leading me to believe it’s the same foal, just bigger and stronger 🙂
Did NPS see Fresia and foal up close? Wondering if they were able to confirm gender. As far as Custer’s band goes maybe Winnemucca realizes its pzp time and doesnt want to get darted this year haha 😉
🙂